That is all policies and political structures are testable and tested to see their effect on those three (or other suggested) factors. If a policy doesn’t reasonably work then it’s simply not continually employed. I’m curious to see what factors others think ought to be used.

It seems most political systems now were built without science in mind and utilize it as an afterthought to help develop legitimacy for policies individuals want. Generally politics across countries seems deeply emotionally driven and not fact driven. That is people have a feeling that an idea is a good idea and then they cobble together whatever they can to support that point without any unified measure of good or better. Ideally it ought to be the other way around, fact or evidence informed policy generation.

  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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    1 day ago

    Those are all parts of Marxism-Leninism, and the basis of Marxism-Leninism is dialectical materialism. Here’s Lenin outlining the basics of Marxism in The Three Sources and Three Component Parts of Marxism:

    The Marxist doctrine is omnipotent because it is true. It is comprehensive and harmonious, and provides men with an integral world outlook irreconcilable with any form of superstition, reaction, or defense of bourgeois oppression. It is the legitimate successor to the best that man produced in the nineteenth century, as represented by German philosophy, English political economy and French socialism.

    Later on, he describes the philosophical section:

    The philosophy of Marxism is materialism. Throughout the modern history of Europe, and especially at the end of the eighteenth century in France, where a resolute struggle was conducted against every kind of medieval rubbish, against serfdom in institutions and ideas, materialism has proved to be the only philosophy that is consistent, true to all the teachings of natural science and hostile to superstition, cant and so forth. The enemies of democracy have, therefore, always exerted all their efforts to “refute,” undermine and defame materialism, and have advocated various forms of philosophical idealism, which always, in one way or another, amounts to the defense or support of religion.

    Marx and Engels defended philosophical materialism in the most determined manner and repeatedly explained how profoundly erroneous is every deviation from this basis. Their views are most clearly and fully expounded in the works of Engels, Ludwig Feuerbach and Anti-Dühring, which, like the Communist Manifesto, are handbooks for every class-conscious worker.

    But Marx did not stop at eighteenth-century materialism: he developed philosophy to a higher level, he enriched it with the achievements of German classical philosophy, especially of Hegel’s system, which in its turn had led to the materialism of Feuerbach. The main achievement was dialectics, i.e., the doctrine of development in its fullest, deepest and most comprehensive form, the doctrine of the relativity of the human knowledge that provides us with a reflection of eternally developing matter. The latest discoveries of natural science—radium, electrons, the transmutation of elements—have been a remarkable confirmation of Marx’s dialectical materialism despite the teachings of the bourgeois philosophers with their “new” reversions to old and decadent idealism.

    Marx deepened and developed philosophical materialism to the full, and extended the cognition of nature to include the cognition of human society. His historical materialism was a great achievement in scientific thinking. The chaos and arbitrariness that had previously reigned in views on history and politics were replaced by a strikingly integral and harmonious scientific theory, which shows how, in consequence of the growth of productive forces, out of one system of social life another and higher system develops—how capitalism, for instance, grows out of feudalism.

    Just as man’s knowledge reflects nature (i.e., developing matter), which exists independently of him, so man’s social knowledge (i.e., his various views and doctrines—philosophical, religious, political and so forth) reflects the economic system of society. Political institutions are a superstructure on the economic foundation. We see, for example, that the various political forms of the modern European states serve to strengthen the domination of the bourgeoisie over the proletariat.

    Marx’s philosophy is a consummate philosophical materialism which has provided mankind, and especially the working class, with powerful instruments of knowledge.

    It’s incredibly difficult to summarize an entire ideology in a short definition, especially one made by non-MLs.

    • Zephyr@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      1 day ago

      Sounds a bit like the Bible in that it’s self referentially true. If there’s a hypothesis, measurement, and test then that’s science. If one takes that and adds other ideas onto it it’s science plus some other ideas. So far I haven’t seen anyone use Marxism-Leninism to discover new particles, new methods of computation, medical treatments, and so on.

      You can have whatever ideas you want but ultimately there will be some outcome from them that’s measurable, even faith (or lack thereof) has measurable outcomes in the psyche and physiology of an individual or even a populace.

      You see even science is used to legitimize these ideas within your own comment. That is we know ultimately through the scientific method if something is valid. If something has no measurable effect on reality then it can be noted but it’s not of much concern. Like for instance maybe on the tip of every match is ten thousand angels doing the moonwalk, if it has no effect on anything it’s not awfully important.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        12 hours ago

        I’m not arguing against science, I’m arguing against the idea that we can perform science without an underlying philosophical outlook.

        • Zephyr@sh.itjust.worksOP
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          11 hours ago

          I agree, the underlying philosophical framework I’m talking about is measurably and methodically increasing individual and societal human wellbeing through metrics like the human development index, gross domestic product purchasing power parity, and environmental impact. Few policies will be a win across the board but there can be an optimization of multiple metrics to increase wellbeing individually and overall.

          I don’t think we need anything more than just that, or some self referentially true quasi religious faith in abstract concepts. Let’s get back to actual real world measurable and quantifiable wellbeing of people and humanity. We don’t need faith in politics or governance when we can have facts. Afterall what is the actual goal of society? Is It for individuals to have their philosophy win or is it to increase the wellbeing of humanity?

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            11 hours ago

            That’s not a philosophical framework, it’s a moral stance. Philosophy is about how we interpret the world. This is why you ironically are retreating into abstraction while accusing me of doing so, when I’ve done no such thing. I’m not arguing faith over facts, I’m arguing that the way we interpret facts is based on our world outlook. By denying world outlooks exist, you let your subconscious world outlook determine it for you.

            • Zephyr@sh.itjust.worksOP
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              11 hours ago

              You can say it isn’t but science is a philosophical framework and science with the application of measurably increasing human wellbeing is even more so. I’m not sure which philosophy will change facts around physiological wellbeing like starvation, lack of access to basic necessities, measurable cognitive health and so on. You can be of any political affiliation yet reality will still be there waiting for you.

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                11 hours ago

                Science is not a philosophical framework, and you’re now describing a moralistic reasoning for it, not a world outlook. Philosophy changes how we view the origin and causes of starvation, lack of access to basic necessities, and more. The philosophy you seem to be pushing is a vulgar approach to empiricism, rather than a more accurate dialectical materialist philosophy.

                Here’s an example. Do you believe historical change is primarily driven by a development of ideas, or material conditions?

                • Zephyr@sh.itjust.worksOP
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                  11 hours ago

                  Once again you can say it isn’t but it indeed very much is a philosophical framework stemming from the philosophical foundations of logic and reason. Is it better to have a particular outlook on starvation or to actively be ending it through the most optimal means via evidence informed planning and practices? Reality doesn’t care what we think about it. You can take any angle you want on it but it’ll be there as it is.

                  As for change its always been guns, germs and steel. The philosophy you’re speaking of was an inefficient middleman towards change and development. If for instance a society follows a diety who says cleanliness is holy and they were more clean aka more biologically fit then they were accidentally discovering something true which could have been directly discovered via science. Them having that faith helped but not as much as having a framework for determining facts.

                  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                    10 hours ago

                    You’re abstracting the problem of denying the influence of how we view the world on how we view results of science, which is ironically enough a metaphysical error. It’s of course better to be actively ending starvation, but that wasn’t the question. The way we interpret facts determines how we go about ending starvation. Of course reality doesn’t care about what we think of it, but the way we interact back with reality certainly does!

                    As for the question, you dodged it. The answer is that the development of history is a result in shifting material conditions, which changes how we think and reshape the world. Like it or not, religion was in fact early science. Science itself is not a philosophy, it’s how we understand the world. What you are grasping at is a vulgar materialist conception of science at best, but this misses how change and development actually occur, and results in errors by abstraction.

                    This is the reason world outlook is important, you’re assuming you already have the correct world outlook while refusing to grapple with the fact that you have one. It’s Schrödinger’s philosophy.